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Jean
Lebanon
50 Posts |
 Posted - 11/18/2005 : 3:57:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pietro
Aoun did not meet with Lahous, because Lahous invited the press. Obviously he didn’t want the meeting in the spotlights, and that’s the wrong you must see in such a meeting.
It is Lahoud with a "d". I see you intended to insult the president; I will not join you in that.
I take Aoun's explanation of what happened over yours. Aoun did not try to hide the meeting with the President. He cancelled because he had his own reasons and I believe him.
I do see why we should join the Hariri and Jumblat chorus in the attack on Lahoud. Hariri (the father) renewed to himself with Syria's blessing for 12 years. He renewed also for Hrawi and for Lahoud. If you have a problem with that take it with the Hariris. They have messed up this country and they will continue to do so until they are stopped. I do not see anyone other than Lahoud (the President) or Aoun (the next President if we really want a free Lebanon) able to stand in the face of Hariri's take-over bid on Lebanon.
Where would you like us to stand? In the applause ranks with Moawad and Tueini and Samir Frangie and Amine Gemayyel and Solange Gemayyel and Setrida Geagea?
I would rather be in the opposition and keep saying no until I see a truly national plan that eliminates the family strongholds and the fuedal entitlements.
Michel Aoun provides the alternative for these used goods and failed leaders. He may not be the smartest, he may not be the most articulate but he has the people's trust and he certainly deserves it.
If you wish to make a difference, join his team and give him a load of your ideas.
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 6:45:39 PM
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Gisèle,
Eventually you fall into the typical Aoun supporters’ category: political reductionist. You really think you can deny Samir Geagea’s popularity by evaluating election results, while forgetting the misunderstanding the Christian street had of the alliances…eventually since you misunderstood them yourself.
Do you still insist, after all the political splits between Geagea and Gemayel from one side and Hariri from the other, and after the very flagrant Geagea Aoun political cross-roads, that the Christians of the “big alliance” are alleged to Hariri?
If you do, I can’t find any logic that could convince you otherwise.
The croutons of the salad dear Gisèle have been crowding the road to Bcharré since a month now. I’m not one of them, I’m actually not really satisfied by any Lebanese Christian politician today, but unlike you, I don’t deny what’s obvious by simplifying electoral statistics without taking into consideration influential factors such as the sectarian mass-driving that took place, the misunderstanding of alliances, and neutral people who make the majority of those who have voted for Aoun.
Now the sad truth that I have to admit is that eventhough Geagea isn’t zero-popularity as you claim, Aoun is still the most ponderable Christian figure on the ground and I have to abide by supporting him unless there’s a Christian consensus around another – I hope.
Finally, I must really express my awe at Aounists’ ingratitude when I read words such as: “I do not see much difference between… Elias El-Murr and Gibran Tueini”. You people are stunning.
Jean,
Yes I know eventuality someone who takes one of Aoun’s explanations as reasonable, can easily take all the rest for granted.
I can’t really see why did you bring Hariri up, I am not a Future supporter and I will not defend him. All you said about Hariri Senior is right, but I can’t see how that can make Lahous any better.
I am insulting the president and not the presidency. Lahous himself, is an insult to the presidency.
The applause chorus you mentioned have all voted unlike Hariri or Jumblatt for the presidency of the Parliament. They are calling-out loud for the achievement of UNR1559 while Hariri and Jumblatt speak of defending the "resistance". The Kataeb and the LF have been opposing Jumblatt in his overdriven presidential attacks and have been calling for a major Christian consensus including your beloved monsieur le General. But eventually the problem resides in the fact that the most popular vocalist here can’t manage in choruses, he can only administrate his lunacy in solo.
You really believe what you watch on TV. Trust me Hariri, Jumblatt, Aoun, Geagea, Gemayel, and all the ones making you believe their splits today will rejoin hand-in-hand around 1559 in less than a year, with Hizbulla and Syrian puppets such as Franjieh and Irslan on the other side. It's only a matter of time for the scene to be back as it were last March because Sanioura's pragmatism is losing ground.
If you really think all the rest are failed leaders, please try to show how much of a success Aoun was back in 1989-1990? By getting the Syrians out? By the Ilgha war? What else, enlighten me!
I apologize but your invitation is refused, I won’t be joining the orange blind-chain or the olive-green lost army any time soon. No political group on the scene now is worth joining...They all proved to be chair-runners, and most stunningly did Aoun.
Oh and for the difference monsieur le General intends to achieve, I wish him good luck with Murr, Erslen, Franjieh, Lahous, as ferocious helpers.
Regards.
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Edited by - Pietro on 11/18/2005 7:08:11 PM |
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The Whip
42 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 7:16:16 PM
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Pietro -
I admire your neutrality (real or apparent) but I do not think that neutrality in politics will lead us anywhere.
In order to reach a goal, you have to define it, organize around it, draft a plan of attack and go for it.
As someone who never followed a leader but was always driven by ideas and plans, I find the lack of a plan for all leaders on all sides revealing and it makes you wonder whether we as a people are worthy of a nation.
The Aounist-Geageaist rift that you describe is not anything new.
Many Christians view the Geagea movement (and have always seen it as such) as a militia descendant of the Kataeb Party. The Kataeb, despite their loudspeaker and their claims to represent the Christians in Lebanon never had a majority in Parliament. They have always managed to use force to silence other Christians and hence the resentment against anything derived of that party among a majority of Christians.
Believe me, had Aoun put a scarecrow on his list, the scarecrow would have won. Not because the Christians are not discerning, but because they had enough of the militias of hate and of the one man party (Pierre Gemayyel).
Many if not most Christians blame Geagea for the last 15 years and believe that Geagea launched his war against Aoun when the latter was trying to liberate Lebanon from Syria. Geagea's goal, to maitain the exclusive representation of the Chritians between Madfoun and Damascus Road. Eventually he managed to impose himself on the people between Madfoun and Nahr Kalb. When those had their first chance, they retaliated. Yes the vote for AOUN across the board in Jbeil and Keserwan and Metn was a Christian retaliation against the Kataeb and Geagea's forces. As for the kids you see crawling to Bsharreh, we all know the tactics of bringing the masses especially when you have school children and newborn on the tits participating. The LBC is the master of propaganda in Lebanon; do not listen to it too much.
Gisele and Jean -
I respect your support of General Aoun, but let me ask you what is Aoun's plan to deal with the other blocs in parliament? I yet have to see him meet with Hariri or Jumblat, the de facto leaders of their clans whether you like it or not.
What is the General's plan? To attack them militarily! I hope not.
I too trust the General's nationalism and patriotism but Hitler and Saddam were also patriots and nationalists. I am still waiting to see in the General the visionary leader who can with calm and poise reach out to all groups and talk them in joining him around a discussion table. What keeps him?
Where is his initiative?
In my opinion the Christian arena is currently void of any visionary leader who can pull the country behind him. Not that other clans have better leaders but at least their leaders can pull a clan majority behind them (Hariri, Jumblat, Berri). Eventually we have to settle for a clan leader who pulls a majority of the Christians behind him. The most likely candidate to lead the Christian clan is Aoun. |
Edited by - The Whip on 11/18/2005 7:20:33 PM |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 6:37:36 PM
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The Whip,
The Kataeb/Chamounist dualism had the majority of the Christian street between 1958 and 1982; a third but weaker pole was Raymond Edde. The virtual fourth pole was the Chehabi current, but now we all know it was through the maneuvers of the second bureau that this current faked popularity, Johnny Abdo admitted this himself.
The Kataeb’s popularity boosted like hell after 1973 when it was the party odd enough to declare resistance. I can’t really see how you wish to prove that fact wrong…what you mentioned yourself contradicts what you try to say:
The Kataeb did indeed impose their dominion and silenced opponents by force but do you think they could have done that if any opponent was as ponderable as they are? Of course not, because their power was 100% from the street, which means from their popularity, unlike the Chehabi self-imposing which used the government’s and the army’s force.
The Kataeb’s popularity reached its peak in 1982 with Martyr President Bachir Gemayel’s phenomenon. He had the support of the Kataeb – that’s half of the Christian street already – the Chamounists, the Chehabis and even some Muslim sides such as Erslan and Salam.
I don’t need to say all that because unless you don’t live in a Lebanese Christian area, you’d surely know when you meet ten Christian mid-aged, you’d be sure five of those where fighting with the Lebanese Forces resistance.
“Because they had enough of the militias of hate and of the one man party (Pierre Gemayyel).”
Cheikh Pierre was always elected the president of the “one man party” by full votes except for an empty vote he’d place himself, by an executive bureau re-elected by the Kataeb popular base each two years. And at his bed of death, he said he trusts Elie Karame for the party’s presidency. Since then, not once was a Kataeb president from the Gemayel family, until some week ago.
So I don’t really see why people insist on blaming Cheikh Pierre for feudalism.
Now when it comes to Geagea it all disappears. He was the one who turned the resistance to a militia, rather a mafia. He definitely crushed the popularity of Bachir Gemayel’s Lebanese Forces.
But, if you review your history, you’d know well enough there were LF patrols fighting with the Lebanese army against Syria in the Liberation war. Geagea did not launch any war against Aoun – I don’t know where did you get your contrary information, he made the mistake of helping him in the Liberation war instead.
Why a mistake? You were the one who said “In order to reach a goal, you have to define it, ORGANIZE AROUND IT, draft a plan of attack and go for it.”
It was a mistake because the Liberation was a born-lost case: Aoun was using the Bachir Gemayel military tactics, but what he forgot is that Bachir Gemayel used political tactics simultaneously. How did Aoun expect to win the war, with the USA, the Arab community, and Muslims whose lands he was trying to free from Syria were all support for Hafez? No one was on his side except the dilapidating weapons he received from Saddam, and rare visits from the French ambassador, while Bachir’s project had full support from Philip Habib, Günter Dean, Menachem Begin, and the KSA. Resistance is not only a matter of shooting guns.
Instead of succeeding, the war led to Syria re-entering the Eastern area. The war led to weakening the Christian decision in Lebanon to the point of having not a single word in the Taef, and to all Christians blaming the wrong guy for the last 15 years.
What else should I speak about the General’s brilliant political abilities? It was Aoun who personally declared the Ilgha war and not Geagea – the LF had no real power to declare a war on the army anyway…and that’s historical fact, not opinion. I blame Aoun the most, but without forgetting Geagea’s responsibility with his mafia-like oppression of the people.
LBC is the master of propaganda indeed, and unless one is blind, one would know LBC was the one to help Aoun the most through the elections. LBC today is mostly close to Geagea, but it is the most objective Lebanese media you can get. Unless LBC’s cameras succeed in making middle-aged men look like “kids”, what you say is totally irrelevant. I can easily guess you don’t live in a Christian area, unless it is Baabda.
As for my neutrality, it is real today. But if I had witnessed all Lebanese history, I must admit I’m a strong admirer of Michel Chiha, Bachir Gemayel, Pierre Gemayel, Camille Chamoun, and Charles Malek: The Guardians of Lebanese identity.
I’ll keep my neutrality for the time being because I see no resources – ie: political visionaries – today who can lead to any goal. I’m simply praying the conspiracy-talk about the American federalist project is true, and hoping it reaches Lebanon…because when there is no one who can make a change from the inside, the change must be imposed from the outside.
Regards,
Pietro
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 6:54:05 PM
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Oh and a reminder to all who support Aoun for being sick of “hatred militias”. Did you know Aoun was an important member of Bachir Gemayel’s plan-M gathering? He was the link between the army and the LF, made all the synchronization between the military and the resistance, and planned most of the LF’s military plans…and coordination with the Israeli army.
Did you know he was suggested and supported as General by Camille Chamoun?
Did you know he glorified 100 times the Lebanese Forces martyrs for defending Lebanon when it suited him politically, and then called them outlaws when it didn’t? (That’s all on tape folks, if you’re interested)
Before getting sick of “hatred militias”, know how to differentiate between a militia and a resistance. And in case you really get sick, know who to support for it.
But again, if it must be him so all the Christians agree today, I’m full support.
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Murielle
France
8 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 9:10:51 PM
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I think a distinction needs to be made between what Bachir Gemayyel stood for and what he represented and on the other side what the Kataeb of Pierre and Amine Gemayyel represented or what is left from the Lebanese Forces today.
Bachir was truly "Un homme d'état" with a vision for a strong and modern state.
His father opposed him at many turns and history will show that the first coup d'etat Bachir did was against his father's alleged leadership of the Christian street. He unified by force all militias behind him and those who did not join were killed. From the beginnings of a true dictator, he evolved into a wise leader.
Neither Amine nor Samir will ever be able to fill his shoes.
As for the people who Pietro sees flocking to Bcharré, I did not see more than a few thousands from the neighborhood and I am not sure that they are all Christians. After all his wife (Setrida) received more than 60,000 votes in the last elections (most of them from the Sunnis and Alawites of Akkar). In the purely Christian regions, Gegea's LFs did not pull more than 20% support and that was in a combined effort with Kataeb, Kornet Chahwan, and the money of Hariri.
I do not wish to revive the old wounds ofb the wars i Lebanon; but I know one thing, in my region we voted for the Aoun list "AS IS" as a pledge of support to General Aoun and because we believe in his plan for a new Lebanon.
If you wish to read the General's program go to Tayyar.org.
By the way, I am not a subscriber to the Tayyar party but I consider myself a staunch sympathiser. |
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democracyinlebanon
16 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 09:54:40 AM
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CONGRATULATIONS TO FRAIZZZE.
YOUR TOPIC HAS GENERATED MORE THAN 20 REPLIES.
THANK YOU FOR STIRRING A LIVELY DISCUSSION.
DEMOCRACY IN LEBANON |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 3:41:43 PM
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Murielle,
Samir or Amin are as far as fulfilling Bachir's Lebanon as hell is from heaven, but Michel Aoun is even farther.
As for the distinctions you're making, I think the distinction is to be made between Amin's Kataeb, and Cheikh Pierre's Kataeb.
Bachir opposed his father, an old diplomat, by his Machiavelist ways and the disagreement was methodical and not around the purely Lebanese goal. Bachir, until the moment of his death, preaching in Deir El Salib just before the explosion, talked about building Lebanon as Cheikh Pierre's Kataeb always wanted Lebanon.
So please don't create family splits and disagreements that never happened. Distinguish between Amin's mediocre Kataeb, and Cheikh Pierre and Bachir's glory days.
Now back to the present, you are a number more on the sadly huge list of political reductionists following Michel Aoun. Plank was able to prove reductionism is wrong in physics, how right can it be in politics?
If you think those numbers really draw the Lebanese Christian street, make sure you get your loads of Valium before next elections - not that I will ever support Geagea or Gemayel or Aoun.
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Moderator
12 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 8:35:37 PM
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The discussants in this thread are advised to frame their arguments in a national rather than a confessional context.
Discussants may address the desired criteria of the next president and whether General Michel Aoun or other candidates meet those criteria.
If a discussant advocates a particular confessional agenda, he/she may discuss it as such in a different thread.
Thank you for your cooperation.
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Forum Moderator
Center for Democracy in Lebanon |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 10:06:07 PM
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Honestly, I cant even tell where Aoun's policy is going today anymore. I just hope he is sincere when he says he supports Saniora, and that he wants change in infrastructures of the country. We need presidents who act and who make their o****ry evolve, as our old presidents... Camil Cham3oun is a wonderful example.
We need such a president. A PATRIOTIC president, in all terms. Yes, a president of Christian confession, but who works for all Lebanese, four our unity as a people, no matter our religion. We need this president now, more than ever, and e must have very good relationships with his prime minister.
Thanks. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 6:50:01 PM
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Moderator,
I appreciate your secular tendency, but presidency is indeed a confessional issue, just like it was for the other two members of the Lebanese troika. It is not wrong, it is just another form of democracy, a sectarian federation...And I sure insist it stays this way, unless geographical federation could be achieved.
fraizzze,
Words of gold. |
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Aoun, president?
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