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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2005 : 1:44:47 PM
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Bullocks, I was not pointing the finger really. I was merely entertaining Lebanese Jew's point of view, who for some reason retired herself from the discussion.
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Lebanese Jew
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 09:23:43 AM
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I was not pointing fingers and I did not retire from the discussion.
My question was whether Hezbollah will create unrest in South Lebanon if and when the issue of disarming it or sending the Lebanese army to the South comes up. Everyone seems to assume that Hezbollah is a benevolent patriotic movement whose sole mission is the Liberation of Lebanon from Israel. I see Hezbollah as a self-perpetuating sectarian entity whose sectarian agenda comes before any other national consideration of the Lebanese state; in fact I think that Hezbollah regards Lebanon as a transient entity that they have to deal with until they reach their "dream" Islamic state. |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 5:03:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lebanese Jew
My question was whether Hezbollah will create unrest in South Lebanon if and when the issue of disarming it or sending the Lebanese army to the South comes up. Everyone seems to assume that Hezbollah is a benevolent patriotic movement whose sole mission is the Liberation of Lebanon from Israel. I see Hezbollah as a self-perpetuating sectarian entity whose sectarian agenda comes before any other national consideration of the Lebanese state; in fact I think that Hezbollah regards Lebanon as a transient entity that they have to deal with until they reach their "dream" Islamic state.
Let us assume for the sake of argument that the point you make is right, how do you propose to deal with it? What solution(s) do you offer? I personally do not have data one way or the other. I can speculate ad nauseaum about the motives and plans of Hezbollah, but as a secular democrat, I believe in individual rights to believe and organize around common ideas, work for it and try to reach it by peaceful means, as long as the ideas and actions do not infringe other groups' rights and fall within accepted norms of political behavior. Therefore, as a political party working within Interntaional Law and the Laws of Lebanon, I have no problem with them. But I have a problem with their arms if those remain outside the control of the collective Lebanese will. |
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Lebanese Jew
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 11:16:06 PM
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Truth, you do not have to assume.
Here is the latest about Hezbollah from [Addiyar newspaper] - A high-ranking Hizbullah official clearly stated the Lebanese resistance group's position on all United Nations Security Council resolutions pertaining to Hizbullah, saying "reshuffling the Lebanese Army now would undermine current strategies that have kept Lebanon safe" and "Hizbullah's weapons are not negotiable."
"Why change anything now?" said Sayyed Hisham Saffieddine, head of Hizbullah's Executive Council, in reference to Security Council Resolution 1614 calling for the deployment of the Lebanese Army in the South.
Saffieddine, who was overseeing the annual Hizbullah ceremony honoring wounded Hizbullah fighters on "the Day of the Injured," focused on addressing key issues which he said "keep coming up."
"What has kept Lebanon safe from its enemies are the current strategies agreed upon between the resistance and the army, so any attempts to change the strategies are attempts to destabilize Lebanon and create division in a country trying to remain united," Saffieddine said.
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mehio
Lebanon
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2005 : 10:31:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth Squad
The Sunnis on the other hand, have lost control of a state (Iraq) which may no longer exist. My impression is that the plan would be to give Syria to Sunni control (Sunnis are a majority in Syria); that would shift the war from Iraq to Syria on one hand, and on the other it would appease the angry Sunnis of Iraq and Syria. Lebanon’s role in this ordeal, would be not to take sides. With arms in the hands of militias and groups beyond Lebanese control (like Hezbollah and the Palestinians) Lebanon may inadvertently get involved. That could lead to a disaster. That is why I am calling for a total disarmement of all groups outside the Lebanese army.
Good point Truth. I agree with you that returning Syria to Sunni control will reduce Sunni anger over Iraq and fits perfectly in the global plan to create sectarian states in the Middle East similar to Israel in their structure. In fact the Sunni leadership in Syria and Lebanon has begun preparing for the post-Assad era:
الحقيقة - 10 ايلول 2005
شهدت باريس خلال الساعات القليلة الماضية اجتماعا ثلاثيا بعيدا عن الأضواء برعاية سعودية ـ فرنسية ضم كلا من سعد رفيق الحريري وعبد الحليم خدام ، نائب الرئيس السوري السابق ، والعماد أول المتقاعد حكمت الشهابي رئيس هيئة الأركان العامة للجيش والقوات المسلحة في سورية خلال الفترة 1974 ـ 2000 . وأكدت مصادر " الحقيقة " أن الاجتماع " تم بحضور الأمير تركي الفيصل ، السفير السعودي السابق في لندن والمعين حديثا لدى واشنطن ، والأمير محمد بن فهد بن عبد العزيز ، لبحث مرحلة ما بعد بشار الأسد ، ومناقشة الاستعدادات الواجب القيام بها داخليا وإقليميا ودوليا لملاقاة النتائج التي سيتمخض عنها تقرير المحقق الدولي ديتليف ميليس ، والتي سيكون في مقدمتها تقرير مصير النظام السوري ، وفق ما تبلغه المجتمعون من مراجع دولية ذات صلة مباشرة بالقضية . وعلم أن الاجتماع المذكور تم على مرحلتين ( "جلستين ") جرت الأولى في منزل النائب سعد الحريري ، فيما تمت الجلسة الثانية في أوتيل بلازا أثيني Plaza Athénée الكائن في شارع أفيني مونتان حيث ينزل الأمير تركي الفيصل الذي يتوجه بعد بضعة أيام إلى واشنطن لاستلام مهمته الجديدة سفيرا للمملكة العربية السعودية خلفا للأمير بندر بن سلطان . وقال مصدر عربي مقرب من أحد المشاركين في الاجتماع " إن الاجتماع تمت الدعوة إليه على عجل في ضوء آخر المعلومات القادمة من الأمم المتحدة حيث اجتمع رئيس لجنة التحقيق الدولية ديتليف ميليس بالأمين العام للمنظمة الدولية وسفراء كل من الولايات المتحدة وبريطانيا وفرنسا الذين تلقوا معطيات تفيد بوجود أدلة دامغة على تورط مستويات عليا من النظام السوري بجريمة اغتيال الحريري " . وبحسب المصدر فإن الدعوة إلى هذا الاجتماع العاجل " اقتضت قطع زيارة عبد الحليم خدام للسعودية وتوجهه إلى فرنسا قبل يومين " .
واعتبرت مصادر فرنسية مقربة من أحد المشاركين في اللقاء " أن الاجتماع كان بمثابة مؤتمر مصغر لمناقشة النتائج السياسية التي ستترتب على تقرير ديتليف ميليس ، والخطوات المزمع اتخاذها دوليا ضد النظام السوري في مرحلة لاحقة ، بما في ذلك بلورة هيئة سياسية سورية تحظى بإجماع عواصم القرار لقيادة عملية التحول السياسي في سورية " . وتحدثت هذه المصادر عن أن النقاش تناول " إمكانية وجود عبد الحليم خدام على رأس هذه الهيئة بالنظر لأن رئاسة سورية ، التي كان من المفترض أن تنتقل إليه إثر وفاة الرئيس حافظ الأسد بمقتضى الدستور باعتباره نائبا أول للرئيس والأكثر خبرة في قيادة الدولة ، جرى انتزاعها منه عنوة عبر الحرس الجمهوري الذي أرغمه على توقيع جميع المراسيم والقرارات التي أوصلت بشار الأسد إلى هرم السلطة " . وأضافت هذه المصادر قولها " إن جزءا أساسيا من المناقشات تناولت تشكيل حكومة انتقالية برئاسة العماد أول حكمت الشهابي تضم عددا من أبرز رموز المعارضة السورية الذين يحظون باحترام الشارع السوري ، والذين يمثلون الاتجهات السياسية الرئيسية في البلاد ، فضلا عن شخصيات مستقلة من الطوائف والاثنيات التي يتكون منها المجتمع السوري . ويكون من مهمة هذه الحكومة تأمين انتقال سلمي وهادئ للسلطة يطوي حقبة آل الأسد عبر انتخابات ديمقراطية تشرف عليها الأمم المتحدة " . وختم المصدر الفرنسي بالتأكيد على أن النائب سعد الحريري " سينقل نتائج هذا الاجتماع الذي ضم اثنين من أقرب المقربين لوالده - خدام والشهابي - إلى نيويورك وواشنطن الأسبوع القادم "
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democracyinlebanon
16 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2005 : 10:35:10 AM
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CONGRATULATIONS TO LEBANESE JEW.
YOUR TOPIC HAS GENERATED MORE THAN 20 REPLIES.
THANK YOU FOR STIRRING A LIVELY DISCUSSION.
DEMOCRACY IN LEBANON |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 2:20:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Truth Squad
[quote]Let us assume for the sake of argument that the point you make is right, how do you propose to deal with it? What solution(s) do you offer? I personally do not have data one way or the other. I can speculate ad nauseaum about the motives and plans of Hezbollah, but as a secular democrat, I believe in individual rights to believe and organize around common ideas, work for it and try to reach it by peaceful means, as long as the ideas and actions do not infringe other groups' rights and fall within accepted norms of political behavior. Therefore, as a political party working within Interntaional Law and the Laws of Lebanon, I have no problem with them. But I have a problem with their arms if those remain outside the control of the collective Lebanese will.
I could't agree more. But the situation is scary at the minute because people aren't heading in the direction of dialogue but in the direction of civil war, would you agree with me?
it's a very pressing issue at the minute to have dialogue. It's an URGENT priority |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 4:44:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullocks
I couldn’t agree more. But the situation is scary at the minute because people aren't heading in the direction of dialogue but in the direction of civil war, would you agree with me?
Indeed. You are right on point Bullocks. If things continue to progress as they are, we are heading to war in Lebanon. The rhetoric is so high and vain that one is left to wonder what is wrong with these politicians; and I mean all of them. From Hariri’s “Future" tabloid media and their cronies in Parliament and the Cabinet, to Jumblat’s crazy chorus, to Aoun’s naïve assertions, to Bkerki’s arbitrary declarations to, of all people, “The Guardians of the Cedars” etc.
No one is attending to the immediate needs of the citizens; they are all waiting for Mehlis to see who they could eliminate based on his report. I think the Hariri camp was waiting for the preliminary report to implicate Lahoud - so that they could “dethrone” him - and perhaps some ties to Hezbollah so that they could move onto their arms.
As someone who vehemently opposed the constitutional amendment to extend Lahoud’s mandate, I find it very hypocritical of the Hariri camp and some of their allies to ask for Lahoud's departure after they were the ones to extend his term. So a good start would be to lay off Lahoud’s back and attend to the people’s needs. Should Mehlis final report implicate him personally in Hariri’s murder, then Parliament should impeach him and try him both politically and judicially. Until then, let him be and attend to the country's needs.
Simultaneously, Hariri and his allies - Jumblat, etc. - seem to be preparing for a potential coup d’état in Syria, hence the “all of a sudden" need to appear as staunch Arabs; you hear it in almost every interview with Hariri Jr., Jumblat, Aridi, Abu Faour, etc.. They seem to be seeking Arab cover in case they move to topple the Syrian regime. Unfortunately, this message is coming across to some Christians as one to reopen the whole identity of Lebanon issue, hence the re-emergence of groups like the guardians of the cedars.
Therefore, my thinking is that the war will not be civil initially, in the sense that it will not involve sectarian fights – early on – between Christians and Moslems (no basis for that yet, as long as everyone who says they accept the Taif accord mean it); my fear is that the war will begin between pro-Assad factions and the Sunnis in Syria. Hariri’s involvement in engineering it, will lead to repercussions in Lebanon that may also involve unrest and fighting between pro-Hariri groups and pro-Assad ones. This of course could escalate to unforeseeable consequences, but desirable ones by the enemies of stability and peace in Lebanon. These consequences may include partition of Syria and Lebanon, nationalization of Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon, etc.
As for hiwar – dialogue – between all of the above; I totally agree that it is a must. Things will calm down a lot if you can get Hariri (and those he represents: Future, Kornet Shahwan, Kataeb, Lebanese Forces, etc.), Jumblat, Aoun, Bkerki, Nasrallah and Berri to meet at a round-table, closed-door, discussion and come out with a consensus regarding the next step based on realistic expectations.
I will be happy to be part of any dialogue or contribute intellectually to it but unfortunately I do not have a militia or a following that would make a difference and if I speak, those involved may not wish to hear what I am saying. They do not want a dialogue; honestly, I do not know what their agenda may be beyond the speculation I put forward above.
If there will be war again in Lebanon, and if there are Lebanese who are willing to support it, then let them die fighting it; because they would have proven once again that they are unworthy of peace and unworthy of life. I pity the silent majority who was mobilized on March 14th 2005 with high hopes and false promises. The Cedar’s revolution should have brought new faces to power and eliminated old ones but it did not yet. So we either have to accept the ones we have or go back to the streets and light up the revolution fire again. |
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Justice For All
Lebanon
20 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 12:14:29 AM
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| What happened Truth? Did you buy into the Syrian claims or did you totally cross over to the other side? |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 5:01:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Justice For All
What happened Truth? Did you buy into the Syrian claims or did you totally cross over to the other side?
None of the above happened. I am merely stating things as I see them.
Everyone understands that there is an ongoing investigation and that there will be serious repercussions against the killers; but for the life of me, I cannot understand why does a third of Parliament have to run away and hide in Paris and the rest of government sit idle awaiting the results. All what the current administration and the Hariri media are obcessed with is the Presidency. If they are not attacking Lahoud, they are choosing the next President.
There are more vital and needed matters that require the government and the media attention.
I am always on the side of the Lebanese citizen regardless of who occupies Lebanon or who governs in it. |
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Gisèle
Lebanon
36 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 01:06:04 AM
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Well civil war has already begun against the Christians in Lebanon.
Every other week an explosion and every other week a new list of victims. What do you call this? This is civil war at its best.
All it is waiting for is for the Christians to arm themselves and start attacking the other side and we are back again in 1975.
All of this while Mr. Nasrallah is inviting everyone who wishes to carry arms in Lebanon, Mr. Hariri is on a PR tour outside the country since he finished his elections, Mr. Lahoud and Mr. Seniora are visiting New York and Mr. Berri has disappeared in no man's land.
Wa ni3ma elhoukmi wal houkouma. |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 05:53:14 AM
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Hello
Thanks for the analysis and the replies, it's quite interesting speculation.
No matter what is going on, they are preparing for something, and there's already an undercover war targeting the christian areas. The reason why they're doing things "min ta7it la ta7it" is because it's a very dirty game. The only way to face this, as lebanese citizens, would be to team up together against all this non-sense and get them round the talking table. It's not their right to risk our lives (the lives of the lebanese citizens) just to satisfy their own political game or for the sake of gaining more political power. And that's what we're doing in 7iwar, and we're being supported "ma3nawiyyan" by CDL. I hope CDL would join us in actual meetings with the factions at some point in the future (when it becomes appropriate), because we share a lot of the same principles based on lebanese partiotism (al mowatiniyya al lobnaniyya) |
Edited by - Bullocks on 09/22/2005 05:53:57 AM |
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Lebanese Jew
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 2:07:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullocks
Hello
No matter what is going on, they are preparing for something, .... The reason why they're doing things "min ta7it la ta7it" is because it's a very dirty game...
Who are "they"? |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 1:47:36 PM
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it's an undercover fight between different groups and factions, which is submitting to external influences that are not lebanese.
In other words, a regional war on lebanese soil as usual.
and if you tend to think who might be involved in particular, it gets really complicated.
But our great politicians are certainly involved. Or at least some of them.
Who do you think is doing the bombings? |
Edited by - Bullocks on 09/25/2005 1:48:44 PM |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 10:53:29 PM
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| After what Elias l'Murr said on LBC yesterday, I think it's clear that Syria is behind the bombings. The question is who is conducting them? I think there should be an investigation into this; it is plausible that syrian workers are following orders from their government to sabotage lebanon |
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Hezbollah takes Lebanon to civil war
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