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 Aoun, president?
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2005 :  10:14:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
There have been a secret meeting today between Aoun and Lahoud. And a week ago, Lahoud said that he would resign only if Aoun came at his place. What does that mean? Is it democratic?
What did Aoun do to his country to obtain the right to obtain the right to become president anti-democraticly? In 1991 he burned Lebanon, him and Samir Geagea, and today they are both in our parlement. How come? Haven't we learned anything from this bloody war?? We don't want a murderer as president! We need new people, COMPETENT people! And mostly, democracy! Not secret meetings !

Truth Squad

114 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2005 :  11:38:25 AM  Show Profile
Aoun and Geagea are not worse than Jumblat (The butcher of mount Lebanon) or Berri or the other leaders or Hariri who many feel he stole their properties in Beirut in the Solidaire settlement.
So kindly keep the war argument off the table.
Let us argue who would be the best president and what is the best way to bring him/her about.
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2005 :  12:04:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
OK. LET US KEEP THE WAR ARGUMENT OFF THE TABLE.
March 14 : lebanon was united. red and white were our national colours. we wanted change, finally.
When MrMichel Aoun arrived, he did not want to join the opposition with Hariri and all the people here on march 14, but he created HIS oRANGE revolution. He divided the opposition, and with whom did he created contacts?? Michel Murr! Syria's allie. How can you explain that the man who fighted syria is officially making alliances with pro-syrians, and all the people who approached him and who were pro-hariri, he rejected them. He is not in hariris camp, and he doesnt want to dialogue with them, instead, he seeks presidency and dialogue with pro-syrians.
What did Michel Aoun bring to Lebanon since he arrived in 2005 other than division between christians? He knew all christians were with the opposition , and just to divide them, he ocmes and reopenes his Tyyar thing to split us again. Tell me, truth squad, why should we follow such a man?
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2005 :  12:07:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
oh and i forgot one thing
Jumblatt cant become president. :)
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Pietro

Lebanon
64 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2005 :  03:31:39 AM  Show Profile
fraizzze,

In war massacres occur. The point is to evaluate whether the warlord politically led the massacres for a greater good and the interest of his country (ex: Bachir Gemayel and the Safra massacre). Aoun and Geagea both failed here, but the drawback is political, not military.

Aoun canít pretty much fit in a wide alliance such as March 14, his military strategies canít work with such strong allies, so he preferred allying with weaker Lebanese sides. The weaker now were the ones who werenít in Martyrís place 14th of March, such as Franjie, Erslen, and Murr: their popularity especially in this electoral law was shattered.
So what Aoun did was very exquisite, bringing down the Kornet Chehwan, LF and Kataeb by making it as if they are alleged and not allied, slaves and not partners, and then allying with the remainders of the Syrian regime who have popular bases. He hence helped them, and they helped him in making a way for his independent seat in the parliament through the squashing 14th March dominion.
Of course all that for one goal: Presidency.
He helps the traitors for one goal: Presidency.
He declares war on half of the Christian street for one goal: Presidency.
He makes Gabriel El Murr, and Nassib Lahoud fail for one goal: Presidency.
He pretty much is ready to mess anything up for one goal: Presidency.

As much as I would not like seeing him fulfill that goalÖ
As much as I despise Aounís politics and recognize his failure in international relations and politics Ė and thatís crucial for Lebanon exceptionally now Ė back in 1989 and todayÖ
I admit that the Christian street is totally misled as usual and always follows the one with extreme slogans, the one who makes traitors of others. And the supremacy for a president today is one: to be a strong Maronite figure, because it is the atmosphere in Lebanon today and because ostracizing the Maronite community could lead to severe Arabic dominion over the country which could pretty much influence the settlement issue.

So I only wish Maronites would agree on somebody else, anybody is better than Aoun. But if itís necessary him so that the Maronites agree on one candidate, then Iím full support.
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2005 :  08:00:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
Your right Pietro. If democracy claims Aoun president, i shall totally respect it, as long as Democracy claims it, and not only Lahoud !
And let us hope he knows how to drive a country for its peoples interests, and not only for his interests.
For now, he gives his full support to Saniora, which is good.
But as I say, we, Lebanese people, deserve a wise and devoted president who knows how to heel his country, and to conciliate the divergences (hezbollah and amal..). Lahous cannot longer be legitimate, he does absolutely nothing and fights for a presidency he is not even supposed to have today.
Let us hope democracy will findus a good President for the Republic of Lebanon, finally.
Lebanese deserve it.
Thank you
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Truth Squad

114 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2005 :  10:54:29 AM  Show Profile
Fraizze,
For the sake of the Truth let us keep rumors for Al-Mustaqbal TV and maybe Annahar Newspaper.
Let us stick to the facts.
1)Aoun apparently did not meet with Lahoud, not that I see anything wrong with such a meeting.
2)If you read Arabic, read the article by Marwan Sadek on this site. I think he sums up the view from the Christian perspective very well.
3) Democracy is not about speaking with one voice but more about respecting the rights of everyone to have a voice and protect it.
It is about protecting minorities rights before the majority.
Either way, as long as we maintain a confessional system of government in Lebanon, the president will be the nominee of the christians.
Whether a prior or existing president endorse the nomination is besides the point.
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Pietro

Lebanon
64 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2005 :  6:30:11 PM  Show Profile
fraizzze,

Itís not about democracy as much as it is about the importance of the Christian word in the balance. In 1958, Fouad Chehab became president as a compromise between the USA and Abdelnaser, he had no Christian representation. Consequences? Lebanon is thrust into the Arab equation and is still suffering from this. Marginalizing Christians in Lebanon will only give Lebanon more Arab involvement.
Aoun is apparently the only political figure today who doesnít need to depend on a non-Christian support to be potent. As much as I admit this sad truth, I pray Christians can reach a consensus around someone else, because I donít see this wisdom youíre mentioning in monsieur le General.

Being wise today is definitely not in conciliating divergences, it is in knowing what Lebanon we want. Saniouraís pragmatism is starting to fail: Terje Rod-Larsenís declaration that Sanioura promised him the fulfillment of UN1559 has already set the fire in the Hizbulla bloke.
Soon enough youíll see the real political structures reform: 14th March WITH Aoun included on one side, Chiites and Syrian puppets such as the SSNP, Irslan and Franjie on the other.
My friends, there simply is no reconciliation; there are no compromises allowed, no consensus. You canít reconcile with the ones who donít want your country from the first place. Being wise today is to choose what we want: A democratic multi-cultural Lebanon with diplomatic relations with superpowers and with a reserved seat on the international communityís table, or an Islamic anti-Israeli isolated project.
If youíre clairvoyant enough, youíll see trying to reconciliation between those two leads to nowhere. I am with a radical solution, even if this means war Ė Iím expecting your critics on this last sentence I know.


Truth Squad,

Aoun did not meet with Lahous, because Lahous invited the press. Obviously he didnít want the meeting in the spotlights, and thatís the wrong you must see in such a meeting.
Aounís politics is to support the isolated so he can get various political links which eventually he leads, such as Erslen, Murr, Franjieh and Skaff. If he had stayed with the strongest, 14th of March that is, he wouldnít have had anything his way.
Whatís very irritating is that he doesnít give a flying care if this helps the corrupted heís allying with at the expense of brilliant political figures such as Nassib Lahoud. Whatís more irritating is that the street is blindly following him, because of his apparent fanatics.
He has to support Lahous because he must assure his reach to presidency first. Lahous is spoiling in everyway possible the Maronite President image: no international diplomat or ambassador is visiting him, already two international summits occurred and he wasnít invited, etcÖetcÖ and still Aoun insists on defending him with the pretext of defending the Maronite President image.
Is it the image heís defending, or is he working to conquer that image himself?

One last thought:
Everyone slips this sentence today: ďas long as we maintain a confessional system of government in LebanonĒ. Everyone throws this regime on eventuality and on others, and when it comes to the real deal no one is ready to give it up.
I am personally not ready to give it up. I never will be, and I donít see it as anti-democratic. On the opposite I think if we can make it work, it will be a supra-democratic achievement.

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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2005 :  7:20:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
Pietro, you are right about the Christian consensus.
The president, a Maronite, have to be chosen (most importantly) among the Christian community, and this doesn't mean a secret cocus in Sfeir's office will make emerge the new president. This means the representants of Christians in our parliament shall vote for this new president.
But about your civil war thing (i know u know im gonna react, but hey, u talked about civil war there!), i understand today's issue seem very very dangerous and close to the edge. Hezbollah and Amal are blindly doing anything to protect what is left of Syrias interests in Lebanon, and to talk in the name of a radical and isolated Iran. Their voices have nothing Lebanese, and as you said, no compromise shall be possible about Lebanon's identity : Sunnis, Christians, Druze, and some Chias shall never limit their country to a pro-Iranian radical islamic anti-israeli ''resisting'' country. Those who want this kind of country work for Iran and Syria, not for Lebanon. Therefore we shall tell them what democracy implies : FOLLOWING THE RULES, AND IF THEY INSIST ON KEEPING THEIR RADICAL POLITICS AND USE THEIR WEAPONS AGAINST THEIR PEOPLE AND THEIR COUNTRYS INTERESTS, democracy's force will make them resign. What is democracys force? It can be many things. It can be intense dialogue and negociations with other communities to pacificly join the majority, it can be a civil war between the official army and the resistans, or, (hopefully not, but most effective), a war between Democracy and Dictature, this means the lebanese army backed by many many occidental armys such as the US army, british, france, Israel (why not, they always wanted revenge on hezbollah) or others, and the Resistance army. But this will imply Iran...which is a bit scary. So let us hope negociations will work ! And untill then, we need a new president, for god sake! Every day passing with Lahoud as president is an obstacle for many new projects and resolution to make the country a better place.
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Pietro

Lebanon
64 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2005 :  5:22:12 PM  Show Profile
I vote for the "hopefully not but most effective". I believe in radical solutions, and - I know you're gonna react once again - I believe relevant changes in a society and necessary national evolution steps never take place through peace but through war, and are never achieved by pragmatic democracy but by dogmatic visionaries.
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2005 :  10:06:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
Man... i dont wanna argue, but i will give you the most evident counter-example for ur statement : the province of Quebec (in which i live). It is today a very very important spot in north america, while 50 years ago, they lived here like in the middle-ages.
Evolution in Quebec have been insane. They passed from being ruled by church and corrupt priests, to a socialist democracy, transparent and equal for all. Quebec is today very very modern, and it is economicly very strong. No war ever occured here. As pacific as the sea :)
Same thing for Dubai, China, Morocco, or Senegal. Yes war can change a country. But it is certainly not the only way.
Thank you
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Pietro

Lebanon
64 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2005 :  6:41:08 PM  Show Profile
Dubai hasn't really changed, neither did any of the emirates...no matter how high skyscrapers reach, and tourism income rises, it is still an islamic monarchy. Same goes for Morroco.
China, since 1949's Mao Zedong's speech has been a dictatorial one-party state, the Communist Party still has absolute control over political aspects of society, and it continuously seeks to eradicate threats to its rule.
Senegal has been brought to democracy by France, with a fully devoted Senegalese population which rejoiced for having a country, which is not comparable to Lebanon, with half of its population considering its birth a crime because it has seperated it from its Islamic surroundings.
Quebec's riddance of the National Union might be the exception to the rule. It's not much of a rule, it's just how things go usually, you can find counter-examples, but it doesn't mean it's not the regular evolution axis.

I'm not calling for war, I'm just saying Lebanon's last war was a failed baptism.
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GisŤle

Lebanon
36 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2005 :  6:46:41 PM  Show Profile
I would like to ask those who lament March 14th movement?
Organizations were there for their agenda but the people were there to kick Syria out (at least the Christians).
Now that Syria is mostly out, March 14th mission was accomplished.
The organizations who want to fall back on that historic day to claim popularity have to realize that the only popular organized movements in March 14 demonstration were the Hariri Mustaqbal movement, the Jumblat PSP movement and the Aoun Tayyar movement.
The rest (Ma3leish excuse the analogy) were croutons on the salad or Ketchup on the fries (groups like Kornet Shehwan and all its individual members, Amine Gemayyel Kataeb, Solange Gemayyel LF, Samir Geagea LF, Elias Atallah followers, the Nationalist Liberals (Ahrara) and others).
The fact that within purely christian areas, none of these groups could claim a single seat in Parliement (except for an empty seat left for Pierre Gemayyel Junior).
So Fraizze, the true Christian voice is represented today by Michel Aoun and no one else.
Call it what you wish (democracy or not); these are the rules of the game as set by March 14th.
Obviously the 2 other players (Hariri and Jumblat) are attempting to exclude Aoun from the equation and for obvious reasons they find support among weak spirited Christians like the Nassib Lahoud, Pierre Gemayel, Boutros Harb and others.
As far as I am concerned, I say YES to Aoun for president. I say it as a Christian, I say it as a Lebanese who believes in one future for all Lebanese.
Pietro likes to call me and the likes of me radical. I do not know what that excatly means in his dictionary. In mine it means someone who believes in a country from all and for all (Frankly I do not see much difference between Walid Jumblat and Talal Arslan or between Elias El-Murr and Gibran Tueini, or between Boutros Harb and Slayman Frangieh).
If you find any significant difference between them, please let me know.
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2005 :  3:05:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
Gisele, you call yourself christian, but you do like muslims : you follow the same man unconiditionnally.
In the south, Sheikh Nasralla have been followed and has no opponent. In metn, Michel Aoun HAS opponents because there is real democracy here. People think, object, and give ideas. Yes Michel Aoun is very good. He can become president. But he is certainly not the only one, and alone, no man can achieve anything. Michel is nothing without his men, and others are as good as him, belive me, if not better.
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fraizzze

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2005 :  3:09:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit fraizzze's Homepage
When I say Muslims, I talk about the militants inthe osuth, im sorry i dont wanna judge all the muslim population by the way... :)
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Jean

Lebanon
50 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2005 :  3:45:25 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by fraizzze

There have been a secret meeting today between Aoun and Lahoud. And a week ago, Lahoud said that he would resign only if Aoun came at his place.
This is a lie. You are basing your argument on a false premise.
quote:
Originally posted by fraizzze

What does that mean? Is it democratic? What did Aoun do to his country to obtain the right to obtain the right to become president anti-democraticly?
He did more than the people who are feeding you these lies. Open your eyes and try to be objective.
quote:
Originally posted by fraizzze
In 1991 he burned Lebanon, him and Samir Geagea, and today they are both in our parlement. How come? Haven't we learned anything from this bloody war?? We don't want a murderer as president! We need new people, COMPETENT people! And mostly, democracy! Not secret meetings !
A murderer as president!!! Him and Samir Geagea!!!??? I do not see you demanding accountability from Walid Jumblat for killing the Christians or from Hariri for stealing their lands in downtown Beirut and turning it into Solidaire's property.
Frankly, the Christians have chosen and their choice was Michel Aoun, if you do not like it, you can try to change the people or stay in Canada and do not worry about Lebanon.

Who in your opinion would be a better president than Michel Aoun? Nassib Lahoud (The Syrian appointed deputy who could not get elected on his own) or Carlos Edde, or Fares Boueiz?

Competence my friend Freizze begins by saying the truth and building arguments around facts, not wishful thinking and rumors. You began your argument with a false premise, a rumor, a lie. The fruits, no matter how reasonable you try to be cannot be valid.
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