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Bullocks
66 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2005 : 12:48:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lebanese Jew
Thank you Dana. I appreciate your kind and well-thought words.
I guess you can sympathize with the way I feel. I am Lebanese.
Whenever I think about it, I wonder whether the distinctive meaning it has for me is shared by others and tears rush to my eyes as if I am lonely in my feelings and my origins.
For me, being Lebanese is not just a nationality; it is more of a yearning to my origins, to the history of my family to who I am in a very nostalgic sense.
It is not the same though about me being an Arab or belonging to the Arab culture (although I still speak Arabic, Lebanese, fluently). You refer to the Arab world as a nation, but for me I do not see it this way; for many reasons:
1) my background and upbringing taught me that nations are a temporary and sometimes artificial segregation of peoples into groups based on misperceived similarities and differences;
2) as a globalist, I feel that national boundaries are collapsing against a new wave of cooperative diversity dictated largely by economical necessities. That does not mean that I deny Arab culture and its influence on me and on the peoples in the Middle East and beyond. But in my opinion this culture lacks the ethnic homogeneity (it is very diverse to its credit) and has not had the chance to rise to the status of a nation in the sense of organization or common interests (although these may have waxed and waned over time).
For me belonging to the Arab world is more similar to belonging to the Anglo-Saxon world or the Francophone world, but not to a nation like the American Nation (organization), the British Nation (organization), the Native American Nation (Ethnicity) or even today the European Nation (organization). I will be happy to read your reply in this regard.
I have not read the book by Schulze, but I will look for it. Thank you for the tip.
Reformist: I respect your sense of nationalism and the way you express it but I do not necessarily subscribe to it. Without meaning to be impolite or offensive, allow me to reply to you with a quote from Oscar Wilde on patriotism: "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious."
I'll rephrase Reformist's question:
Suppose that (God forbid) Lebanon and Syria were at war - then which country would you side with in terms of public support?
I'm gonna ask you the same question again in terms of Israel
Suppose that (God forbid) Lebanon and Israel were at war - then which country would you side with in terms of public support?
"ßäÊ ÃÝÖá áæ ßÇäÊ ÇáãÞÇæãÉ æØäíÉ ÔÇãáÉ æáíÓÊ ÔíÚíÉ ÕÑÝÇð"
ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓä ÇáÃãíä |
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dana
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 10:51:39 AM
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Lebanese Jew – you have made several valid points. I agree with you regarding the lack of ethnic homogeneity between Arab countries.
I have always thought an "Arab Union" of some sort should be formed, in the same way you have in Europe. I think this would strengthen the economy not only monetarily & politically, but help move people forward and be up to speed with North America & Europe. The EU did it considering the many different languages and cultures they all share, In looking at Arab countries, we share the same language (1 vs. the 20 languages in the EU federation) and culture in many ways (The average person recognizes domes and mosaic designs as ours but it takes an architectural critic to classify what region and era it's from. Compare that that to English vs. Italian). Our history has shown Arabs to be amongst the most homogonous of any proposed federation. We have the means and capability to form a powerful economy. All we need is the courage and conviction to say enough. Enough to our crooked leaders and their damning policies, enough to foreign interference and their selfish ends, and enough to sitting on our behinds waiting for things to get better on their own in the future while we complain about our present situation.
(Apologies for rambling…I realize I’ve gone way off topic).
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dana
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 10:55:03 AM
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Bullocks –
I never imposed my “Arabism” on anyone. Like I said in my earlier post, this is simply my personal opinion and many wouldn’t agree with me – I understand. However it doesn’t give anyone else the right to point the finger and tell me I’m not patriotic or I’m “not Lebanese” for feeling this way – this tells me others are not respecting the identity I wish to be a part of. I’ll tell you something; a close friend had this argument with me once, and labelled me as not a true Lebanese, which was a big insult. If she felt this is the identity she wishes to take on, then I totally respect that, but you shouldn’t go around disrespecting other Arabs because you feel a sense of superiority & the need to disassociate (btw - I'm still referring to her not you personally). That was simply my point. I have many Jewish friends and I’ll tell you one thing, I see how the Jewish community tends to stick together across the globe, and I think that’s wonderful. I just wish Arabs worked more together than against each other (and I speak out of experience – I have lived in several Arab countries and have seen this behaviour)
To your question on which country I would side with, I will respond with what Lebanese Jew said initially: “Is the ability to defend the homeland a pre-requisite for citizenship in Lebanon?” Does it make you more Lebanese if you stood up to defend your country?
Why can’t I be part of the group that advocates peace NOT war? That’s what I’m about, and that’s what I believe in.
Although I would continue to respect anyone that feels differently, I do not tolerate extremism on the subject (I’m not referring to the fact that you were – not at all, just making the point).
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lebanon419
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 11:34:07 AM
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I can only concur reformist’s comments. I wonder, if Lebanon was attacked by Israel, would you as a Jew, become resistant to Israel or would you support it? (note in history, even some lebanese non-jews supported israel, so this question isnt only to you because your a jew, it is probably to every Lebanese)Resistance does not only go by military means. It is who you support at heart.
And as far as I am concerned, looking at all Lebanese fact files, Judaism is much less than 7 000 in Lebanon. In fact, it merely goes under the 3% ‘Other’.
As for the Arab identity, I guess it is up to one’s own will to regard themselves as Arabs or not. Yet take into consideration the ‘outsider’ eye (usually western), who to them you are most likely an Arab.
Arab unity is vital bi kil ma3na il kilmi. European countries had fought against each others in history, yet have managed to form a unity (of cores a unity which exists along the sovereignty and independence of each country and the equal share of power and benefits), why shouldn’t we, the Arabs who share the same language, culture etc.? essipically Lebanon and Syria, who are practically from the same ‘mother’. |
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Lebanese Jew
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 1:43:17 PM
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I will try to reply to one topic at a time:
First to answer Bullocks' clarification of Reformist's point: I understood exactly what Reformist was asking and I thought I answered it earlier in what dana quoted me saying. Anyway I will be happy to clarify.
Questions of war and peace cannot be discussed in the absolute. They must be evaluated in their proper context.
As a pacifist, I am against all wars; whether the aggressor was Israel or Lebanon or any other state. I know that does not quench the thirst to know where I would stand politically.
Before I get there I ask you to ponder these facts: In the recent American war on Iraq, a majority of Americans were opposed to their country's war policy (the same can be said of the Brits, the Spaniards and the Italians); did that make them less patriotic? No, unless you were a pro-war activist who wanted to dismiss the anti-war message without a rational debate. These anti-war "patriots" opposed the war for many reasons: they could have been pacifists, or they could have seen in it an unjust and unjustified war. So citizens can differ in their views on matters of war and peace.
The gist of Reformist's questions however is political; translating it would ask: am I an Israeli at heart? The answer is no. I am not an Israeli in the civil sense (a citizen of the state of Israel), nor am I a supporter of all Israeli policies; I could be an Israeli in the biblical sense (Israel in Hebrew means the family of God so an Israeli in that sense is of the family of God). But that’s a discussion about my faith which I do not wish to get into. I do not mix faith/religion and politics.
quote:
Suppose that (God forbid) Lebanon and Israel were at war - then which country would you side with in terms of public support?
First of all, I do not support war, any war. Therefore I do not support any country or policy that advocates war. Second, Lebanon and Israel are in a state of war (as affirmed by Leb. Pres. Lahoud on CNN last Sunday). War between Lebanon and Israel is a matter of fact not supposition. Not being a politician, I do not see a role for me there. But if asked to make a choice, I prefer to be the angel of peace between the two. Having said that, if Lebanon (as a state) institutes a war draft that calls upon me as a citizen to serve, I will go and serve Lebanon. This is not a political stance; this is a statement of principle.
The flip side of this would be for me to ask you, for the sake of argument: If tomorrow Hezbollah or any of the Palestinian armed groups in Lebanon decides to launch rockets against northern Israeli towns or to open the south Lebanon war front against Israel, without provocation, just to liberate Jerusalem, and Israel retaliated by air-strikes against the South and Beirut; or alternatively, if another military General decides that Syria is still interfering in Lebanese affairs and decides to open a new war against Syria and Syria retaliated by shelling Beirut, where would you guys stand? Would you evaluate the righteousness of these acts or would you simply get carried by the rhetoric of nationalism and the drumbeat of war and side with the militants in Lebanon? |
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Lebanese Jew
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 2:10:00 PM
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On the issue of an Arab nation:
As a globalist, I think it would be an excellent step for the peoples of the Middle East to come together, similar to the USA, the EU, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. Small steps were made in that direction, valid theoretically, but a disaster in implementation (e.g. the Arab League). It would be very helpful to learn why these attempts have failed. Unless, we admit they failed though, we cannot learn from the mistakes that led to their failure.
To build an organizational union from existing components, you must have stable institutions and organizations at the level of the components. For the union will be as strong as its weakest link. Religious prejudice, Arab supremacy, lack of democracy and lack of institutions in the member states of the Arab League were its Achilles heal. The way to revive such a transnational union goes through a careful study of what was done wrong.
Back to dana's point on the homogeneity of the Arab culture:
Some aspects of the culture may be homogenous but the peoples are not. I refer to 2 nice books one on “the History of the Arab Peoples” by Albert Hourani and another on “The Arab Peoples” by Sir John Glubb. Both of them review the ethnic diversity in the Arab world. As to homogeneity in some aspects of the culture, namely language and art, I think that may be the influence of Islamic culture from the times of the Islamic Khalifat and the Fath. After that era, there has not been any major cultural impact in the Arab world (except for some traces of western influence on the Mediterranean coast and some far eastern influence in the Arabic peninsula). By contrast, in Europe they have had a number of cultural époques, and empires that led to the diversity in their cultural profiles.
Again here, I do not know if I am an Arab, in the present meaning of the word, or not. Historically many Jews were Arabs, in that their origins can be traced to the Arab peninsula. But many of them were also Canaanite converts or from mesopotemia. Here again, I am like many Lebanese, that's why I prefer to say I am just Lebanese. |
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democracyinlebanon
16 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 2:19:17 PM
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CONGRATULATIONS TO LEBANESE JEW.
YOUR TOPIC HAS GENERATED MORE THAN 20 REPLIES.
THANK YOU FOR STIRRING A LIVELY DISCUSSION.
DEMOCRACY IN LEBANON |
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lebanon419
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 2:43:26 PM
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Hezbollah always acts in response to occupation. Incase u hadn’t noticed, it never sparks fighting unless if the enemy has started first. i.e. it is merely a reponse to an attack.
There is a lot of Lebanese out there who cannot stand the smell of politics, yet when their country is attacked, they stand up for it, even if just morally. And if you are a true Lebanese, anything to do with your country (political, economical, social etc) should concern you, and you will never ignore it. Plus, another thing we Lebanese are famous for, we cannot pass a day without talking politics ;)
If you are an ideological person, then you should stand up for the right against the wrong. Please dont tell me that israel is right??? (i have had enough laughs today)
I personally as a Lebanese Arab feel obliged to carry the Palestinian issue too. I will therefore support any PLO attempt to liberate their country. At the end, we all know Israel was the first one to occupy Palestine. Therefore any attack against it is merely a response. The Palestinians are fighting for their right, and I as a Lebanese believe they have the right to return.
On the other hand, as a Muslim I completely do no what so ever abide the actions of the Israeli jews towards al-asqa mosque. Which religion tolerates such ill deeds? Its utterly disgusting to see that no jewish leader has condemned it (except the anti-Zionist Jews).
As for why Arab leagues have failed, simple answer: because there are some out there who find it a threat to them if the Arabs unit. And, let’s keep in mind, if they really did unit, they would be very strong due to their geographical placement (natural resources etc), which will be a big threat to USA, who wants to keep its role as the super power. They have failed because their leaders have been placed/ influenced by outsiders. We all admit the Arab unity has failed. And we all know what’s why. But can we speak up? Common, an Iranian president was democratically elected, but because he does not suit the wills of both Israel and usa, daily attacks have began against him.
Anyway from reading your posts, I regret to tell you that I, as a Lebanese, cannot trust you to be a Lebanese. (I would love it if you prove me wrong...but hey…)-although i am no one to judge, therefore you can ignore it.
There will come a time where many will die,
When the ground will shake and the skies will cry.
But out of the darkness will rise a light,
A servant of Allah, full of wisdom and might. |
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Samir
Lebanon
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 4:51:40 PM
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Lebanon419: you speak for yourself.
You want to defend terrorists, do it in your own name. Hezbollah has nothing to do with Lebanon. It is a hate-charged group whose mission is to spread the Khomeini revolution. Nothing in its charter, its flag, or its motto says it is Lebanese. It is the antithesis for a modern secular society and must be disbanded.
If you feel so much for them, perhaps you should join them when they are rounded in Guantanamo with the rest of the terrorists from around the world. Certainly they do not speak for me and you do not speak for the Lebanese people.
Same can be said about liberating palestine. If you want to do it, go do it from inside. NOT FROM LEBANON and NOT IN MY NAME.
IF YOU WERE ATRUE LEBANESE, you realize that we have suffered enough in the name of your ... ARAB causes, in the name of Palestine and in the name of your resistance.
If it were not for the Palestinian arms, Lebanon would not have been destroyed in a 30 years war and occupation, if it were not for silly ARAFAT and his illusions and his armed resistance, Israel would not have invaded us. You just want to kill more Lebanese people. Go to hell, you and your Hezbollah and your resistance.
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Samir
Lebanon
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 4:59:11 PM
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Lebanese Jew:
From reading your posts, I feel that you have expressed the way I think and the way I feel. Thank you.
I happen to totally agree with you in what you said so far regarding your origins and your views of the Arab-Israeli conflict and your responses to the war hypotheticals.
Keep on expressing yourself freely and do not feel offended by the Hezbollah person who has just joined our discussion. |
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Justice For All
Lebanon
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 6:50:14 PM
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Shou hamieh mnih elhay'a. Min we Min?
Lebanese Jew: interesting nickname! Have you noticed you are the only one in this forum with a religious connotation in their name! Why? Can't you just be Lebanese? or globalist? or pacifist?
I guess you meant to be provocative. It worked. Bravo!
Lebanon419: Why do you feel obliged to carry the palestinian cause? why not the kurdish cause in Iraq, Syria or Turkey? Why not the Armenian cause in Turkey? Why not the cause of the IRA? Why not the cause of Sudanese in Darfur? What is so special about the palestinian cause that you as a Lebanese (if you are a Lebanese) feel so compelled to fight for? Is it the borders? We do not have borders with Palestine anymore (by UN decree). So why bother? IS it because we Palestinians in Lebanon? Well we have Kurds and armenians in Lebanon too. We have Syriac and Assyrians displaced from Iraq too. Or is it just a religious affair for you? You hate the Jews Lebanon419, don't you? Are you an anti-semetic hiding as a Lebanese?
Samir: cool it down man. Lebanon419 has the right to think the way she (or he?) wishes and say whatever she wants. Use your head when talking politics not your heart. Tame your emotions and let your thoughts be uncluttered with the fervent passion to strike back. You make a good argument but you diminish its impact by getting emotional about it. Let the emotional ones perish in their ignorance, in the empty slogans of their masters and in their vicious wars. You my friend, use your head to be constructive, to build a better future.
Dana, Ref., Truth and Bullocks: Good points! Very poised and well-thought arguments. Kudos...
"Qui Pro Domina Justitia Sequitur" |
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dana
Canada
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 12:18:16 AM
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Wow - things really heated up since I last was on the site just yesterday afternoon.
Good call Justice for All. Haddo belkon ya jame3a...Let us showcase diplomacy in our discussions as we all share and learn.
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 05:55:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lebanese Jew
The flip side of this would be for me to ask you, for the sake of argument: If tomorrow Hezbollah or any of the Palestinian armed groups in Lebanon decides to launch rockets against northern Israeli towns or to open the south Lebanon war front against Israel, without provocation, just to liberate Jerusalem, and Israel retaliated by air-strikes against the South and Beirut; or alternatively, if another military General decides that Syria is still interfering in Lebanese affairs and decides to open a new war against Syria and Syria retaliated by shelling Beirut, where would you guys stand? Would you evaluate the righteousness of these acts or would you simply get carried by the rhetoric of nationalism and the drumbeat of war and side with the militants in Lebanon?
That's an obvious answer - if we wanted to, we are incapable of changing anything in the region. I mean we can't even control the situation in Lebanon. I think it would be a mistake to be drawn into regional politics, and we have made this mistake before - we shouldn't do it again.
We don't need a war with anyone at the moment.
But Hizballah and the PLO are two completely different things. Hizballah is Lebanese, the PLO aren't.
I wouldn't want us to put down our defences in lebanon because that would make us vulnerable. However, the resistance should be lebanese and not based on political Shiism (on Hizballah in other words). Resistance should come from people carrying Lebanese identity as opposed to the Shiite secterian political identity
"ßäÊ ÃÝÖá áæ ßÇäÊ ÇáãÞÇæãÉ æØäíÉ ÔÇãáÉ æáíÓÊ ÔíÚíÉ ÕÑÝÇð"
ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓä ÇáÃãíä |
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RIGHTS OF LEBANESE JEWS
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