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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2005 : 10:19:25 PM
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The dictionary defines "enemy" as "somebody who hates and seeks to harm or cause trouble for somebody else". This enemy can be an individual, a group or a state. It can do political, economic or military harm.
Lebanon's relations with its neighbors - Syria and Israel - have waxed and waned throughout history, at times causing harm to Lebanon and at other times causing harm to its neighbors.
In recent history, particularly after the Taif accord, it has become universally acceptable, not to say required at least for political correctness, to refer to the state of Israel as the “Zionist Enemy”. Do you find this reference to our southern neighbor proper? Why?
Would the qualifier of “enemy” apply to Syria? Why? |
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 7:01:45 PM
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Hi, I am new to this forum but I came across it a few days ago and the discussions peaked my interest. I read through most of them and I think that it is by far the most balanced forum (aside from the professional political ones of course).
To answer your question:
As an Israeli, I do not consider the Lebanese our ennemies. In fact I do not even consider the Palestinians (excluding the terrorist organizations) our ennemies and I think a majority of Israelis share my views.
I was 6 years-old when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. Israel did it in self-defense and not to attack the Lebanese but to stop the attacks by the PLO on North Israel. A lot has changed since then. The PLO is now at the same table of negotiations with Israel and we hope the peace process will progress.
So my answer to you, my friend is NO. Israel is not an ennemy of Lebanon. May be you consider me your ennemy, but I like to think of you as my friend. |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2005 : 11:18:12 AM
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Israel, welcome to the forum and thank you for your kind and friendly words.
I hope my other Lebanese friends will contribute also to this thread and let us know how they feel. |
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PaxLibano
France
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 12:52:27 PM
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Hi Israel,
I am glad to hear that you do not think of yourself as our ennemy and I hope you represent the majority of Israeli opinions.
As far as we are concerned, our government continues to refer to your state as the ennemy. I really do not know for how long this will remain to be the case. But I think, if the Israelis on the inside push for peace with Lebanon, a peace that includes the Israeli withdrawal of all the occupied Lebanese terrotiries, the repatriation of all Palestinian refugees in their homeland, the renumeration for all the devastation that the Israeli invasion of 1982 caused in Lebanon, then there should be no reason why we won't be at peace.
Truth, as you well know, the nomer of enemy and friend is no longer a valid geopolitical or geostartegic descriptor in the 21st century. Countries now tend to go after their interests (mainly economic).
Thanks for opening this debate. I hope to read from others about what they think too. |
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Eyad
Lebanon
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 3:08:45 PM
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Yes Israel. You are the ennemy. You and your state and your government. You have killed our people, displaced them from their homes and distroyed it and brought in Jews from all over the world to put them in their stead.
I think the only way to peace with you goes through a free Arab Quds in what you call Jerusalem and a complete return of all Palestinian refugees to their homes and the homes of their fathers.
and yes you have to pay back for all the damages you caused in Lebanon.
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Jnawb
6 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 11:42:19 PM
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| Isra'eel is the enemy of all arabs forever, not just lebanon. we will fight them with what we have til the end of days until we liberate Palestine. |
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Jean
Lebanon
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2005 : 3:49:18 PM
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I tend to judge people by their actions. As a Lebanese, I have not seen anything good come my way from Israel. But then many Lebanese were thankful for crushing Arafat's PLO in 1982 and expelling them out of Lebanon. That's all history.
We live today and we look to the future.
For the future, I am not one to think we can go indefinitely in a state of war with no end. At some point, there must be peace and I think better sooner than later. But for that peace to arrive, both sides must work for it with an open mind and a good will. I think total withdrawal from all LEBANESE lands (that would include Sheb3a if Sheb3a is Lebanese) and restitution for the occupation since 1982 would be a good start.
I have nothing against the people of Israel per se, as long as they stay in their country and leave mine alone. |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 09:30:40 AM
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I think Israel should pay compensation over the damages caused during the invasion of Lebanon.
I don't see why we shouldn't have peace with Israel. |
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 9:28:00 PM
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To those who are for peace with monetary payback, many Israelis will ask you what about Lebanon paying back to Israel for all the attacks launched on Israel since 1969 (by Palestinians and others). Palestinians used Lebanon to kidnap and Israelis wherever they could, in Israel and abroad despite the truce Lebanon and Israel had since 1948.
I am pleased to know that there are Lebanese who are interested in peace. Because believe me, there are many Israelis (a majority) who believe we should be at peace with all our neighbors.
I think this is a good start, I hope we can continue this dialogue towards peace.
To Jnawb, I hope you would elaborate more so that I can understand better your point of view. You seem to be saying that you are for terminating Israel from existence regardless of what we do. Is this really your point? |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 4:02:49 PM
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Israel,
The following is my personal opinion:
The destruction that your government had caused Beirut during the invasion and the subsequent Israeli raids over the years are by far more severe than the inconvenience we have caused Israel. On that basis, peace will require compensation to Lebanon and also the return of Palestinian refugees that are currently residing in Lebanon to Israel/Palestine.
As most of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon come from the West Bank, this will require the dismantling of Israeli settlements in the West Bank to allow for the Palestinian refugees to go back. I don't think an official peace treaty between Lebanon and Israel would be feasible unless the Palestinian refugees are given the go-ahead by Israel to leave Lebanon and go back to their homes in the West Bank.
Once that happens, then there would be no reason why we shouldn't have peace with Israel.
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Edited by - Bullocks on 10/18/2005 4:04:46 PM |
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Gisèle
Lebanon
36 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 9:30:27 PM
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Well-said Bullocks.
Israel must pay for the horrors and destruction it caused in Lebanon at least since 1982.
Israel must withdraw from all Lebanese lands that it occupies.
Israel must accept a neutral zone on both sides of the borders monitored by UN police.
Israel must agree not to interfere in Lebanon's internal affairs.
Israel must accept to take of the Palestinian refugees who are in Lebanon: repatriate them or send them to Syria or send them to USA or send them to other Arab nations. Just take them out of Lebanon and give them a better life.
If Israel does all that, there won't be a need for war anymore. Peace will come automatically. |
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 6:28:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullocks
Israel, The destruction that your government had caused Beirut during the invasion and the subsequent Israeli raids over the years are by far more severe than the inconvenience we have caused Israel.
My point is that Israel never attacked Lebanon for the sake of attacking Lebanon. Israel attacked terrorist groups who used the Lebanese territories constantly to attack us, hijack planes, kill athletes and bombard civilians in Israel and around the world. I happen to think that it was within Israel's legitimate right for self-defense to crush these terrorists wherever they operated. You made them feel welcome and you paid the price for that. Why do you ask us to recompensate you? Ask them. quote:
Originally posted by Bullocks
As most of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon come from the West Bank, this will require the dismantling of Israeli settlements in the West Bank to allow for the Palestinian refugees to go back. I don't think an official peace treaty between Lebanon and Israel would be feasible unless the Palestinian refugees are given the go-ahead by Israel to leave Lebanon and go back to their homes in the West Bank.
I do not see why should Lebanon speak for the Palestinians always. They have their representative government authority to speak for them. Whether the authority of Mr. Abbas decides to invite them back into the West-Back or agrees with other governments to have them settle elsewhere, it is something that will be discussed bilaterally between Mr. Abbas and Israel, or between Mr. Abbas and the host country.
Regarding the issue of settlements in the West Bank, I happen to believe that they are illegal and should be dismantled but again this is an issue for Israel and the Palestinian authority to agree upon and none of Lebanon's business.
quote:
Originally posted by Gisèle
Israel must pay for the horrors and destruction it caused in Lebanon at least since 1982.
see my reply to Bullocks.
quote:
Israel must withdraw from all Lebanese lands that it occupies.
We already did that.
quote:
Israel must accept a neutral zone on both sides of the borders monitored by UN police.
I do not see the point of that if there will be peace but that could be negotiated.
quote:
Israel must agree not to interfere in Lebanon's internal affairs.
No problem. Consider it done.
quote:
Israel must accept to take of the Palestinian refugees who are in Lebanon: repatriate them or send them to Syria or send them to USA or send them to other Arab nations. Just take them out of Lebanon and give them a better life.
As I said to bullocks, it is something between you and their authority. Israel has no right to speak for them where they wish to go or where they wish to stay. One thing I can tell you for certain, they will not be coming back to Israel, anywhere within the borders of 1967.
On the monetary compensation, I think once we have peace, you will find out that our mutual economical interests will mean prosperity for both countries.
Have you asked Syria for compensation? Have you asked the PLO for that too? These were your guests and they destroyed your country. We went there in self-defense.
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Eyad
Lebanon
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 9:15:11 PM
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Israel, are we negotiating here?
Do you have representative power or are you just an internaut?
I think you do not get it. You were the first aggressors: you displaced the Palestinians into Lebanon. You caused them to attack you from Lebanon then you attacked them and us destroying our country. Give me a break.
I still maintain that you must pay, repatriate the Palestinians and give Al-Quds back to Arab control.
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 10:11:02 PM
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Eyad, Al Quds issue has nothing to do with Lebanon.
However the other issues do.
Israel,
What I was pointing out was that the Palestinian issue in Lebanon will not be resolved until you resolve your problems with the Palestinian authority in the West Bank. That is because most of the palestinians in Lebanon originate from the West Bank. So that's how we're concerned with this issue here in Lebanon. We cannot negotiate with the PA about sending the palestinians back to the West Bank while the West Bank is still occupied by Israeli settlements.
Concerning the compensation, we should seek compensation from Israel, Syria and the PLO for having their wars on our land in Lebanon. But part of this claim will be for compensation from Israel concerning the Israeli invasion and destruction of Beirut. There's no question about that.
P.S. This is certainly nothing I'm concerned with, but concerning the West Bank I don't think that your mentality coincides with the rest of the Israeli public. After all you get people ranging from the far left like Peace Now to the far right like the Kach and Kahane. What is the Israeli public opinion in the middle of all of this wide scope of mentalities? (this is off topic)
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Samir
Lebanon
33 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 03:39:10 AM
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I am with bullocks on these issues.
Shalom Israel - I am for peace with you guys but if we want it to be a lasting one, we have to have some kind of justice.
The people in Lebanon, a majority I dare say, don't like you. Some even hate you - I don't mean you personally - but your state and government. You have done terrible things to us. Gisele listed an outline but if we go in the details we can write books.
So while we all want peace, we have a lot of pain to heal, and plenty of obstacles to face and problems to solve.
My Lebanese friends gave you a general idea of what we in Lebanon require in exchange for peace. As you can see, most of us agree pretty much on the same things: repatriation of palestinian refugees, compensation for war losses and a peaceful border.
On the issue of monetary compensation, I want to clarify a point: it is not a price for peace. it is compensation for destroying our infrastructure, our economy and for impovrishing our people. You seem to be following the news in Lebanon. Before ISrael invaded us in 1982, the USD was about 3 Lebanese Liras, after the invasion it jumped to 2000 LL. You can imagine what happened to the families and the economy with that. and many other examples.
You know I wish you keep replying because I really want the dialogue to be in the open between us and you, the people. Tell us what you like and what you hate and we'll do the same. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 5:52:45 PM
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Dear Jnawb,
I think we should have surpassed by now ancient ethnical and radical politics. So Jnawb, if you’re politically up-to-date, you’ll know intelligent patriotic politics have given up the concept of “forever enemy”, because you never know when two country’s interests may crossroad. But of course, before reaching that strategic knowledge you’ll have to realize that the time of exotic Nationalisms have long gone now! I think Lebanon has already paid more than enough for the interest of the Arab countries, especially the Palestinian interest.
I am not an Arab, and yet I am Lebanese. Lebanon is a multi-cultural country not an Arab one, and even if it was to be referred to as Arab, I can’t accept anymore Lebanese sacrifice for the Palestinian cause.
Your declaration is unacceptable within modern patriotic doctrines.
Dear Eyad,
Please understand that Lebanon’s political positions should never be determined by a foreign people’s interest, such as the Palestinian. If you have reproaches towards the Israeli state, let them be purely Lebanese, I don’t see why we should pay anymore for the Palestinians. I personally am careless about Quds or Jerusalem, let them burst in fire for all I care…I only want the interest of Beirut, and I chose my position only according to that.
Dear PaxLibano, Bullocks, Gisèle, Samir,
You demand economical refunds from Israel, why don’t you ask the same from Syria and Palestine? If you care so much about Hamra, or Dahiye Gharbiyye, how come you are so careless about Achrafieh, Zahle, and Damour? Wasn’t that Lebanese soil as well?
Personally I even think Israel can be blamed less for damaging Lebanon – on all levels – than Syria and Palestine. For two reasons:
1) Israel did that while part of the Lebanese considered it as an enemy state and was declaring war. While Syria did more harm in the last fifteen years, knowing that it was invited in and addressed as a Sister. Same goes for the Palestinians who were welcomed as rightful refugees.
2) What Israel said is true. Lebanon is responsible for Palestinian attacks on Israel! Leaving space for the PLO to take action from Lebanon was the supreme mistake the Lebanese have made, it has caused the war in Lebanon and they should be responsible enough to admit it.
Israel and part of Lebanon – the National Movement – were at war and damages were made both ways. Don’t ask for refunds when attacks towards Israel originated from your houses and streets…It was war, try to get over it.
As for waiting for all Palestinian refugees in Lebanon to head back to their lands is useless, this will push our irritating situation further. Eventhough it is in our interest to have this card as a playable joker in the Lebanese-Israeli future negotiations, nevertheless it should never constitute an obstacle for peace.
Egypt and Jordan still hold Palestinians; it is a flagrantly possible formula!
Dear Israel – my forbidden neighbor,
The only relevant stagnant issue to be settled between Israel and Lebanon are the Chebaa farms, and seemingly the Israeli intention is clear about it… The obstacle is Syria admitting they are Lebanese – not like Syria admits anything is Lebanese. But I think with the international attention we’re getting lately, things are on good rails, and hopefully soon I’ll invite you to ski in Faraya, and then we’ll go fishing in Haifa.
Peace is the new trend, and I totally like it.
Cordially,
Pietro
Lebanese Nationalism is the key! |
Edited by - Pietro on 10/22/2005 05:33:35 AM |
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Is the state of Israel an enemy of Lebanon?
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