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Bullocks
66 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2005 : 09:32:47 AM
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We're talking about Israel's compensation.
If the topic was about the PLO and/or Syria, then who said we wouldn't demand compensation?
the topic at hand is Israel |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 11:47:16 AM
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| Hi. I am a normal lebanese citizen living in Montreal. I consider Israel as being our neighbour, and it is illogic to eternally fight against our neighbours. Israel evacuated south lebanon, and only <<shebaa farms>> (negligeable territory) is occupied by Israel, so there is no serious and credible reasons to stay in a war state with Israel. So yes, i consider Israel as being our neighbour and friend, and as long as the lebanese government denies it just to follow the arab current, we will suffer from this state of war. One last question to you guys : why is it a crime in Lebanon to say that yes, we want peace with Israel, and that Syria is a good allie of lebanon even after all the effective harm it caused us is a statement very politically correct? Is it our problem if iraq or syria have bad relations with israel? Do we always have to follow their opinions? We are independant guys, and Israel is now out of our territory, so we should seriously think about establishing peace between Beirut and Tel-Aviv! |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 12:07:31 PM
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Bullocks,
Yes and about Israel's compensation, I think it's irresponsable to ask for this when the Lebanese so easily let PLO fight back from our land. Too bad this puts us on the same responsibility level of Israel in a two-sided war.
I demand compensations from Syria and the PLO, not from Israel.
fraizzze,
There's no such thing as negligible territory. Each meter of the 10452 km^2 has already drank some 2 liters of blood now and is too valuable to be negligible, however the obstacle in Chebaa is as I said Syria, not Israel.
Regards,
Pietro |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 1:15:25 PM
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You are right, i didn't mean to neglect the suffering of people who fighted for this land. We should effectively think about a logical and tangible plan to regain this territory in a pacific way (negociations between Beirut and Tel-Aviv (and NOT between hezbollah and IDF!!!). And for the rest, EDUCATION is the key. Our kids must not be raisen with the idea that israel is the unconditionnal enemy. They have to learn objecitve facts, and they MUST know that there IS a country called israel (at least! lol) because as far as i have seen, many schoolbooks still deny this fact...
Thank you for your comprehension |
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aash
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 3:27:04 PM
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Then start to work on your actions and your intentions and stop talking and broadcasting.
quote:
Originally posted by Israel
Hi, I am new to this forum but I came across it a few days ago and the discussions peaked my interest. I read through most of them and I think that it is by far the most balanced forum (aside from the professional political ones of course).
To answer your question:
As an Israeli, I do not consider the Lebanese our ennemies. In fact I do not even consider the Palestinians (excluding the terrorist organizations) our ennemies and I think a majority of Israelis share my views.
I was 6 years-old when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. Israel did it in self-defense and not to attack the Lebanese but to stop the attacks by the PLO on North Israel. A lot has changed since then. The PLO is now at the same table of negotiations with Israel and we hope the peace process will progress.
So my answer to you, my friend is NO. Israel is not an ennemy of Lebanon. May be you consider me your ennemy, but I like to think of you as my friend.
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 3:41:51 PM
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aash,
I am sounding like Israel's advocate here which is not true, but I think the Lebanese anti-Israeli propaganda is more harmful here. |
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The Whip
42 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 10:30:59 AM
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Pietro,
I admire your courage, your vision and your leadership.
I agree pretty much with everything you said except letting go of Israel's obligations to recompensate what it destroyed.
Syria has to pay and I think Syria will pay more than we can imagine. Still we need to excise our share.
As for the Palestinians, I do not think they have much of an economy to pay for their food. So I am willing to let go of their obligations, if they lay down their arms in Lebanon, pack their stuff and leave wherever they want to go in the world. Just leave us in Peace.
Eyad - I think you need to read Bullocks' point on the issue of Jerusalem.
Israel,
I appreciate your participation here and I wish you could elaborate more on your proposal on how to best approach the issue of peace. how does the Israeli people see the future of relations between Lebanon and Israel. |
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democracyinlebanon
16 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 10:39:33 AM
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CONGRATULATIONS TO TRUTH SQUAD.
YOUR TOPIC HAS GENERATED MORE THAN 20 REPLIES.
THANK YOU FOR STIRRING A LIVELY DISCUSSION.
DEMOCRACY IN LEBANON |
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 11:03:55 AM
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aash - wouldn't you consider my participation in your forum a good beginning?
I have started as an individual by extending an olive branch to you as individuals. But it seems that many of you are hung on the issue of monetary compensation. personally, this issue may be important to many but I happen to think it is secondary.
Primarily, we have to agree on whether peace between Israel and Lebanon is an option. What would it take to make it a viable option?
If we withdraw our troops from the Shebaa Farms, would that satisfy the requirement for full withdrawal? Let me tell you what the official Israeli stance on Shebaa is: the area of Shebaa was enetered by the IDF in 1967 during Israel's war with Syria, after it pushed back Syrian troops from it. It comes under UN security council resolution 242 and subsequent 338 which regard Syrian claims and not under 425 which regards Lebanon and was implemented in its totality. So unless you guys can guarantee that Shebaa will not be reoccupied by Syria and that it is indeed Lebanese land, your claims to Shebaa are irrelevant.
Who among the Lebanese is willing to sit at a peace roundtable with Israel? Is Hezbollah willing? Is Amal willing? Are the other groups willing? Can you do it without leading you guys to internal wars?
Here in Israel, if the Cabinet engages in negotiations and the Knesset does not like it, the most that will happen is that Knesset may withdraw confidence. Are you there in Lebanon or will some groups still take to the streets with arms if Lebanon enters the peace negotiations?
Most Lebanese leaders keep saying Lebanon will only sign peace after Syria; are you waiting for Syria to sign a peace treaty? If you do not wait for Syria, would that take you to war?
You see aash, I am willing to act, but you tell me if you can act in return without harming yourself. |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 3:56:39 PM
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| About our last comment, ''Israel'', i would say that the actual prime minister, Fuad Siniora is drawing clear borders between lebanon and syria. By the end of this week, or next week, the exact boundaries between lebanon and syria will be drawn, and at that point, if shebaa is declared lebanese, israel should evacuate the area as fast as possible in order to respect the lebanese territory integrity (israel is officially out of lebanon). At this point, hezbollah will HAVE to resign to 2 options : disarm completely, or join the army as a special force in the south. The problem with the lebanese gouvernment at this moment, is knowing if shebaa is syrain or lebanese. But i would say that it is in the benefits of israel to withdraw from sheba now. By doing that, they will force hezbullah to resign definitly. The game is really in israels hands. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 4:52:03 PM
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The Whip,
If I could get money for Lebanon by drowning other countries I would do it, trust me on that. I would organize a life-long sit-in if I thought we could get refunds from Israel…If we can achieve this I’m totally with.
My point is it is harder to get those from Israel than it is from Syria, because as Israel said, the Lebanese-Israeli conflict was a two-sided one…It was the National Movement’s mistake to let the PLO resist from Lebanese grounds, and they must feel responsible for it. While in Syria’s case, Syria’s soil was NEVER offended by Lebanon, or by any foreign country from Lebanese ground. They are more responsible for the calamities they caused than the Israeli are responsible for their own, that’s all my point.
As for the PLO – not the Palestinians as a whole– I don’t care if they have enough money to eat or not…We used to be all support for the Palestinian resistance before it became a parasite on our ground. After what they caused Lebanon, I feel no pity on them – again the PLO and not the starving Palestinian child – and I insist on them paying back even more than the Syrians or the Israelis.
Israel,
I, as a Lebanese Nationalist, don’t have any problem with peace with Israel at this very moment, I even long for it. But the issue in Lebanon is the presence of Arab Nationalists who have sacrificed Lebanon’s interest for the Palestinian cause by driving us into conflict with Israel. Problem is: those Arab Nationalists still insist.
For the Chebaa farms, we have all the documents we need and we’re not giving up a single meter of the 10452km2 we have. The new government has the Lebanese-Syrian border settling on agenda, and you don’t have to justify anything, I know the problem is from Syria, not Israel.
Now the light in the horizon is the new USA strategies and the regional changes they’re causing, with all the pressure for peace process to come next. If we Lebanese can be good navigators through the fields of American interest, I think a new age might be dawning for us, with a Peace promise.
Future is for peace. I am for future.
Cordially,
Pietro |
Edited by - Pietro on 10/23/2005 5:27:05 PM |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2005 : 8:21:35 PM
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| Dear Pietro, when lebanon, as a sovereign country was born, its border where not clearly identified, and where drawn fast, without particular attention to details, like all of the countries in the middle east. Our borders have always been a source of dispute with Syria, since 1943. So no, nothing is clear as you say. Today, 2005, is the year where we shall make it clear, and determine wether shebaa is all to lebanon or syria, or perhaps divide it. It have to be the result of negociations (with words, not weapons). I just said that if israel withdraws, there will be less tension in the area. Hezbollah will occupy the farms untill further precisions arrive. Syria would like to have it, i have to doubt, and we must negociate to have it, but nothing of all that will occur if israel remains in the land !!!!!! |
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Bullocks
66 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 01:43:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pietro
It was the National Movement’s mistake to let the PLO resist from Lebanese grounds, and they must feel responsible for it.
Man you can argue that point when you're arguing with Lebanese people, not with foreign people. I can't believe that you would side next to an Israeli against your fellow Lebanese.
OK the Israeli government was pissed off at the National Movement's allowance for the PLO to function in Lebanon. Is that why they came into Beirut and bombed the hell out of civilian buildings, resulting in 200,000 deaths and massive destruction. Or did they simply miss their target?
Also, what about the Lebanese prisoners that are still in Israeli prisons?
The least we can claim from Israel is compensation, and the release of our prisoners. |
Edited by - Bullocks on 10/24/2005 05:13:59 AM |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 11:36:21 AM
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Bullocks,
I am not teaming up with anyone against a fellow Lebanese, that's definitly not me. I was talking to The Whip, not to Israel.
Besides I think I have already cleared this: I know Israel has attacked and sieged Lebanese citizens, and so did Syria. I'm not saying compensation by Israel is not fair, I'm just saying some Lebanese have got us deeply involved by letting the Palestinians harrass Israel from our ground, and they must feel responsible. So compensation from Israel is much more difficult matter than compensation from Syria which was never agressed by Lebanon, and would come AFTER peace and should not constitute an obstacle, neither a condition, but a later agreement.
Regards,
Pietro |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 1:45:25 PM
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Israel -
In as much as many of us want to be at peace with the state of Israel, we also realize that we are a diverse society and we cherish our diversity.
I can tell you without reservations that many if not most Lebanese, as individuals are at peace with individual Israelis, but translating that peace from individuals to state requires hard work, dedication and willingness to sacrifice.
Our attempt to enter in a peace treaty with Israel in what became known as the May 17th accord failed and I think it would be important to learn why it failed before we venture in a new agreement:
1- Israel occupied Beirut and while many saw in the agreement a prelude for an Israeli withdrawal, others considered it a major concession to the occupant; they fought it and resorted to military resistance (a legitimate right for any people under occupation).
2- The agreement was signed between Israel and a government in Lebanon that at best was non-representative of a majority of Lebanese and did not work enough to build consensus on the accord before entering into it.
3- Lebanon, at the time, was a main front in the cold war between the USA and the former USSR and Syria, the key soviet agent in Lebanon, made sure no peace agreement will take place between Lebanon and Israel without Syria’s blessing.
Today, the issue of peace with Israel still stirs major debate if not disagreements among different groups of the Lebanese society. Our current government may not be the best representative government a diverse society could have. Many Lebanese groups opposed to any peace with Israel are not represented and could be roused by anti-peace movements in the region.
Unless we can get a real majority (through a truly representative government) to endorse a peace proposal, I do not think we can succeed. Between peace with Israel and Peace in Lebanon, I prefer peace in Lebanon. I do not want to see my people fight one more time over a foreign entity: we fought over the Palestinians, we fought over the Syrians, we fought over the Israelis, etc. Enough fights. We need a real peace at home before we venture in a peace process abroad. Once our people are ready to the idea of peace, we’ll move for it.
The problem becomes how to get the people ready? We have to really find out what it takes to make them ready and address it faithfully. Many of my Lebanese compatriots in this forum have raised the issue of occupation of Shebaa farms, restitution for damages from the invasion of 1982 and non-interference in internal affairs and I happen to believe that these are legitimate concerns and warrant a close investigation and redress.
On the issue of restitution, I would like to draw your attention to Resolution 262 adopted unanimously by the UNSC in 1968 and I quote: “The Security Council […]
1. Condemns Israel for its premeditated military action in violation of its obligations under the Charter and the cease-fire resolutions;
2. Considers that such premeditated acts of violence endanger the maintenance of the peace;
3. Issues a solemn warning to Israel that if such acts were to be repeated, the Council would have to consider further steps to give effect to its decisions;
4. Considers that Lebanon is entitled to appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered, responsibility for which has been acknowledged by Israel.
As far as I know, Israel has not paid yet in implementation of 262. This is just an example of what may constitute a wrinkle in any future peace negotiations. |
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Is the state of Israel an enemy of Lebanon?
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