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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2005 : 3:46:02 PM
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Truth Squad,
17th May failed because Israel didn't want it from the first place. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2005 : 3:04:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pietro
Truth Squad,
17th May failed because Israel didn't want it from the first place. Nothing more, nothing less.
This claim may also be true. But do you have any evidence to back it up?
As far as I know, this claim was a rumor spread by Amine Gemayel and his cronies to justify his failure to lead and to build a national consensus on an accord that was approved by Parliament and blessed by the USA and the Arab world.
If you have concrete evidence that Israel did not want that accord and that it just engaged in a scam to waste the time of the Lebanese and the USA and drag them to sign a peace accord in bad faith, please share it. I will be happy to look at it. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2005 : 7:02:33 PM
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Truth Squad,
The actual rumours were the ones spread by every single Lebanese political side about Amin Gemayel...from the Puma rumours, to the abidance to Syria and withdrawal from 17th of May rumours.
Unfortunately I don’t have the document at hand, but it is a letter to Reagan stating that Israel would not withdraw from Lebanon unless the Syrians did likewise. Hence the agreement was dead-born…
Furthermore, I could be more practical by asking you to find the true negotiations history and you’ll be very surprised by learning that Amin Gemayel has never withdrawn from the 17th of May agreement…it was Israel. I wish I could show you tangible documents, but if you insist, you can call LBCI, it keeps them and has displayed them once already.
Since Sabra and Chatila, Israel’s will for a sovereign Lebanon was much shaken. With the Likoud downfall all hope was lost. So now is another opportunity…not to miss.
Regards,
Pietro
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Edited by - Pietro on 10/25/2005 7:03:46 PM |
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Truth Squad
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2005 : 11:30:44 PM
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Dear Pietro,
The point I was trying to make is that any peace with Israel without internal consensus among all Lebanese will lead to a new war in Lebanon. I think it is irrelevant what Israel wants at this point, what is more relevant is our internal agreement. Amine Gemayel failed to bring the Lebanese together around him. Regardless of who may have sabotaged him, he lacked the strategic vision to protect the country politically, militarily and economically. Frankly, I am surprised that you would defend his presidency. I did not mean to attack him in person but as a Lebanese and a living witness to his presidency, I reserve the right to pass judgment on him as a president. He was a failure by all accounts.
The lesson from his presidency is that politics in Lebanon is unfortunately a delicate balance between Lebanese nationalists, Syrian nationalists and Arab nationalists and now we added Iranian. So good luck finding common grounds among these diverging interests to launch any program let alone a peace initiative to what many of these groups consider a religious enemy.
Respectfully,
Dear Israel - I do not mean to say that many, if not most Lebanese, do not desire a real peace with Israel. On the contrary, if left to their own volition most Lebanese would prefer to be at peace with everyone and certainly with their neighbors. You problem Israel is not with Lebanon, it is with the Assad regime in Syria. As long as the Baath is in power in Syria, Lebanon will not have true independence. For we have many Lebanese groups including I dare say that of our Speaker, whose allegiance is to Assad first. They will fight with everything they have got to make sure that Syria's will is done in Lebanon. So as long as you guys do not have peace with Syria and as long as Syria remains Assad's, it is unlikely we'll enter in a peace agreement with you. That does not mean we have to be enemies. I happen to agree with what PaxLibano said in his first reply, the “nomer of enemy and friend is no longer a valid geopolitical or geostartegic descriptor in the 21st century”.
Respectfully,
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 05:24:03 AM
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Truth Squad,
His presidency was the best a president can make in such conditions; nevertheless I’m not a keen supporter of his, for the opposite reasons you have: for me he wasn’t enough radical… On the other hand, I am totally impressed by his brother’s project.
From this I think you have already guessed where I’m getting:
“A delicate balance between Lebanese nationalists, Syrian nationalists, Arab nationalists and Iranian Nationalists” is nothing more but putting-off the present crisis two more decades. Another 1943 is a suicide for Lebanon.
The only final solution for Lebanon is the eradication of Arab, Syrian and Iranian Nationalism. I know it’s not very close and I foresee wars and crisis ahead…but with what logic you really think Lebanon can be stabilized with the presence of such exotic Nationalisms? They were the cause of the war, the root of all evil and compromise and they will continue being so.
Lebanon is for the Lebanese, only.
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Talal
Syria
21 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 09:41:13 AM
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| You are all a bunch of zionists. you hurry to make peace with the ennemy and leave your brothers under attack. we defended you and our brave soldiers gave the best they could to help you liberate your country from the zionist enemy and from the military rebels, Aoun and his generals, and you pay us back how? by running back ila ahdan el3adouww. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 12:18:22 PM
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Talal,
Please mention the presence of Lebanon in your geography books, admit the presence of our men in your prisons, send us an ambassador and we’ll see what we can do next.
Good luck, you’ll need lots of that,
Pietro
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 2:46:27 PM
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Pietro,
I agree with Truth Squad on the reasons for the failure of the May 17 accord. I do not believe that Israel did not want peace with Lebanon. I think we went into the negotiations in good faith. We really wanted peace.
As for the who goes out first Syria or Israel, we ended up going out first, five years before Syria.
I think the failure of the peace process came from Lebanon. When Israel realized that the Lebanese couterpart was unable to keep his end of the bargain (basically you guys fought each other over the accord), then Israel pulled out from the agreement.
Talal,
would you be willing to talk about the possibility of Israeli-Syrian peace accord? |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 3:37:05 PM
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Israel,
Of course you would say that, but come to the practical side of it: the Lebanese parliament had got it positively settled.
Eventually, the failure had started since the death of Bachir Gemayel... Interest conflicts showed-up and bad administration of the Lebanese-Israeli relation lead to the withdrawal of Israel from the agreement.
The reasons for the bad relation was from both sides Israel, but the unreal conditions and the withdrawal were from the Israeli side. Amin Gemayel had done his absolute best.
Anyway, the reason which had lead to the failure of the 17th of May agreement, no matter what it is, must not be repeated again! Peace is what we need now; compensation and relation settlements should come as following diplomatic procedures but should never be an obstacle for peace this time...
I think there is no reason for a peace process not to begin.
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Israel
Israel
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 11:28:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pietro
Eventually, the failure had started since the death of Bachir Gemayel... Interest conflicts showed-up and bad administration of the Lebanese-Israeli relation lead to the withdrawal of Israel from the agreement.
If my history is correct, there was no signed accord with Bachir Gemayel. The May 17th accord was signed by the government of Amine Gemayel and Chafic Wazzan. Soon after internal conflict broke out in Lebanon. It was supported by Syria and pro-Syrian elements in Lebanon and lead eventually to Geneve and Lauzanne conventions, etc.
The point I guess that Truth was trying to make and I understand it quite well, is that there is no majority consensus in Lebanon on a peace agreement with Israel and that such an agreement may render a vulnerable and fragile situation between different Lebanese groups very volatile.
I do not believe Israel is in a rush to sign a peace treaty with Lebanon. But do we have to remain enemies until our governments sign a peace treaty? |
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Talal
Syria
21 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2005 : 8:38:38 PM
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YES YES YES.
The state of Israel is an enemy of Lebanon and of Syria and of all Arabs and Muslims. get it in your heads and stop running behind the zionists. |
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Pietro
Lebanon
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2005 : 6:14:15 PM
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Israel,
The Lebanese-Israeli relation wasn't limited by diplomatic peace-treaty procedures...The Israeli invasion had, as one of the undeclared goals by Begin back then, the collaboration with Bachir Gemayel to establish a sovereign Lebanese government that would reach a peace treaty with Israel. This is exactly why "Peace for Galilee" outpassed the "small pines" plan, and lasted so long.
Bachir had a bad hair day with Begin in Nahariya, some 3 days after his elections considering Begin's demand for a quick personnal peace treaty with Bachir. Eventually Bachir had refused because this would have no real political meaning and would only weaken his position as a president. But the issue was all settled eight days later when Sharon visited Bachir in Beirut.
It was decided to put-off the peace treaty some months more, so it would be in the collaboration of Wazzan and of the parliament.
See, what Amin was doing, was trying to continue Bachir's strategy. The bad thing here is that the Israelis weren't ready for the collaboration anymore, eventually their alliance scheme had been all built on Bachir...This was pushed even more by the Druze lobby in Israel and resulted in bad Israeli retreatments from the Lebanese Jabal, causing Christian-Druze irritations that fired-up a war.
Furthermore, the Sabra & Chetila mistake made by Elie Hobeika, which the Likoud paid too much for, made them reconsider their Christian alliances, and finally the downfall of the Likoud cut the last link.
See Israel, reaching the 17th of May, both Lebanese and Israeli sides had obstacles and each had to take his time to deal with his own, but on the practical level the Israelis were the ones who gave up first, they retreated not Gemayel.
Don't think there will ever be a general consensus in Lebanon about peace with Israel...It will always be faced with rotting Arab Nationalism - Muslims in Lebanon feel less secure than Muslims in Arab countries and use this as a defense mechanism to reinforce their Arabism.
I don't care about a consensus, masses are always pushed into revolutions by revolutionary leaders, such changes never occur democratically.
17th of May didn't happen because Israel wasn't so sure of how much it would pay for a sovereign non-Arab neighbor back then. Nothing more, nothing less.
Regards,
Pietro |
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fraizzze
Canada
58 Posts |
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Topic |
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Is the state of Israel an enemy of Lebanon?
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